Nancy Grace is...

[factsuall]

I did not know where else to post this:

I know she is a very controversial character/personality but at the end of the day: I like her!

She is one of the few that actually and sincerely remind us of the rights of victims and the costs to our communities. She is like a watchdog that keeps those who are slacking in line.

When she moved to CNN I was happy about that as the only court coverage really is on CTV which I cancelled after all the tomfoolery of you know where.

Right away it was noticable that NG had a lot more freedom but I was not sure it was compliment. I found some of her antics immature during the Michael Jackson/SPeterson cases and I would usually be put off by her incessant need to cut people off even when not for a commercial break.

She appears to have been working on that and I have started watching her on CNN again.

Last night she was talking of the numerous young women who have went missing and dead in a small county in Texas. I just wanted to give NG kudos as she brings an important point home to those who are victimized.

Many think prostitution is a victimless crime: it is NOT!

Last night NG was stern when a LE made distinction between missing girls and prostitutes and NG called him on it BRAVO NANCY....as it is the media and most other sources degrade the deaths and/or rapes of prostitutes discounting them as not as important or a way to get rid of them.

Male and female prostitutes were children once upon a time and only those severely deprived actually aspire to grow up and be one.No one chooses to be one and some actually have convinced themselves they like the streets. I think that might be the drugs talking.

Training needs to be put into place for LE to stop separating the worth of women.The rape of a nun is as violent as the rape of a prostitute and vice versa. Do you ever notice how the media will say 'violent rape'..excuse me media ALL rape is violent maybe what you to say ' was raped with assaults'....

Anyway just saying my peace about NG and thankful that she is always there in that corner to hold anyone accountable for the degradation of a womens' worth.

[Franklin]

Hi Factsuall,

You wrote:Many think prostitution is a victimless crime: it is NOT!

I think the reason it is not a victimless crime is because it is a crime. It it were legal, prostitutes would not be at the mercy of their pimps. They would have recourse against abusive clients. They wouldn't be out walking the rough streets.

You may be correct that only wounded people would want to go into the profession, but then victimization would be the cause of the prostitution, not the effect. And if prostituion were legal, maybe it wouldn't be such a tough job that only the wounded would pursue. Of course you would still have the issue of having to be intimate with skeevy skanks, but there are other professions where that is also a problem: dentistry, hair styling, nursing...

As for the morality of prostitution, I think that's up to the individuals involved, not the law. But I do think it's less immoral to pay someone for sex, with the mutual understanding that there no emotional entanglement, than to develop that entanglement with someone with whom you can't or won't follow through.

And, yes, bravo to Nancy for acknowledging that even "criminals" have rights.

What is LE?

Cheers, Franklin

[factsuall]

Okay I am about to DISAGREE with a moderator ..can I get a witness please ;)))

LE-law enforcement

Franklin you and I will disagree on the criminal aspect. I do not view pros as criminals albeit prostitution is a crime, in most places. I see them as victims themselves and most of them are just that, male and female as you know. I donot see is as a moral issue either.SEX IS SEX IS SEX.

It is an exploitative and oppressive and abuse and violent issue. I know that there is an argument that if it was legalized they would be protected from pimps and johns as in Amsterdam. I just do not agree with it. Yes, my work makes me very biased and I do appreciate that.

If there could be a way, speaking hyppthetically, that not one pro was the result of sexual abuse, physical abuse, starvation, incest, neglect then I could not have an argument. If there was not one case of it around the world. Sadly I am too aware to ignore that around the world women, children are being raped for recruiting, stolen for sex, sold for food , pimped for profit .It is inherently an exploitive process.

Since no such condition could be that all around th globe all pros were of their own making then for now I will see them as victims in a process of mysogyny. Men made the criminal law and what is so odd is they set out to punish pros while men pay them yet only recently are there penalties for john. Seems self serving and convenient morality to me........

[Franklin]

Hi Factsuall,

Okay I am about to DISAGREE with a moderator ..can I get a witness please ;)))

I'm secure enough to be disagreed with. Especially when I'm right :)

You wrote:If there could be a way, speaking hyppthetically, that not one pro was the result of sexual abuse, physical abuse, starvation, incest, neglect then I could not have an argument.

It sounds like your argument is that prostitution is wrong and/or should not be legalized because many, if not all, people who choose the profession are victims. In which case prostitution is the effect, not the cause of abuse. Though it may well be a cause also. So I'll use one of my examples here: Overeating and over drinking are probably also the result of having been abused. Should they be criminalized?

If some people would react/respond to abuse by becoming prostitutes, but they are prevented from doing so because of laws, would they not choose another, maybe more destructive reaction? And of course, as we know, the law does not prevent them, it just makes life for them much more difficult.

You wrote:...Sadly I am too aware to ignore that around the world women, children are being raped for recruiting, stolen for sex, sold for food , pimped for profit .It is inherently an exploitive process.

Anything that is done against someone's will is exploitative. I'm not suggesting that we legalize kidnapping and forcing people into prostitution. I'm suggesting that those who choose to should not be hindered by the law. The illegality of prostitution empowers pimps to mistreat prostitutes. If a prostitute and his/her had a business legal relationship similar to employer/employee or agent/client, prostitutes would have legal recourse just as the rest of us have against our business associates. Prostitutes would have much better lives without the stigma of criminality and the predation of pimps, cops, johns, etc.

You wrote:Since no such condition could be that all around th globe all pros were of their own making then for now I will see them as victims in a process of mysogyny.

That guarantee does does exist for any line of work. Slaves in this country were forced to do pick cotton. Does that mean that cotton-picking should be illegal? There are all sorts of slaves, not just sexual. Slavery of all sorts should be illegal everywhere. The voluntary engagement in activities that happen to coincide with forced labor should not be illegal.

Men made the criminal law and what is so odd is they set out to punish pros while men pay them yet only recently are there penalties for john. Seems self serving and convenient morality to me........

I don't know what you mean by recent, but I saw a potential john being arrested over 20 years ago after being approached by an undercover policewoman. But the double standard really isn't really relevant to the argument of whether or not prostitution should be legal.

We cannot effectively legislate against mysogeny, racism or any other evil that lurks within the hearsts and minds of men. The best we can do is legislate against the more profound actions that these attitudes cause. For the most part, these actions are already illegal: murder, assault, rape, sexual harassment. And we can create an environment that is less condusive to these behaviors.

Laws against prostitution offer a very condusive atmosphere for the acting out of mysogeny, IMO. That, and the fact that the law does not exist to impose morality, are why I think prostitution should be legalized. Forcing activities that do not present a major threat to the well-being of our society are major arguments for repealing Prohibition and against banning abortion. The same holds true for prostitution.

Cheers, Franklin

[factsuall]

Hi Factsuall,



I'm secure enough to be disagreed with. Especially when I'm right :)

You wrote:

It sounds like your argument is that prostitution is wrong and/or should not be legalized because many, if not all, people who choose the profession are victims. In which case prostitution is the effect, not the cause of abuse. Though it may well be a cause also. So I'll use one of my examples here: Overeating and over drinking are probably also the result of having been abused. Should they be criminalized?

If some people would react/respond to abuse by becoming prostitutes, but they are prevented from doing so because of laws, would they not choose another, maybe more destructive reaction? And of course, as we know, the law does not prevent them, it just makes life for them much more difficult.

You wrote:

Anything that is done against someone's will is exploitative. I'm not suggesting that we legalize kidnapping and forcing people into prostitution. I'm suggesting that those who choose to should not be hindered by the law. The illegality of prostitution empowers pimps to mistreat prostitutes. If a prostitute and his/her had a business legal relationship similar to employer/employee or agent/client, prostitutes would have legal recourse just as the rest of us have against our business associates. Prostitutes would have much better lives without the stigma of criminality and the predation of pimps, cops, johns, etc.

You wrote:

That guarantee does does exist for any line of work. Slaves in this country were forced to do pick cotton. Does that mean that cotton-picking should be illegal? There are all sorts of slaves, not just sexual. Slavery of all sorts should be illegal everywhere. The voluntary engagement in activities that happen to coincide with forced labor should not be illegal.



I don't know what you mean by recent, but I saw a potential john being arrested over 20 years ago after being approached by an undercover policewoman. But the double standard really isn't really relevant to the argument of whether or not prostitution should be legal.

We cannot effectively legislate against mysogeny, racism or any other evil that lurks within the hearsts and minds of men. The best we can do is legislate against the more profound actions that these attitudes cause. For the most part, these actions are already illegal: murder, assault, rape, sexual harassment. And we can create an environment that is less condusive to these behaviors.

Laws against prostitution offer a very condusive atmosphere for the acting out of mysogeny, IMO. That, and the fact that the law does not exist to impose morality, are why I think prostitution should be legalized. Forcing activities that do not present a major threat to the well-being of our society are major arguments for repealing Prohibition and against banning abortion. The same holds true for prostitution.

Cheers, Franklin

Franklin, I only asked for cup of coffee ;)))

I am still learning to quote out of quotes so please excuse if I make this look like a Picasso...

Should overeating and over drinking be criminalized? Well we know there are restraints on drinking and I do agree that both can be construed as results of conflicted issues whether they are from abuse or not still remains to be determined. There are greater clincial connections to abuse and prostitution.
Though not all abused end up prostituting which is fascinating to me.

Although overeating can be effects of abuse I feel in it is more a state of privlege and gluttony of living in the 'civilized' world.I am unware of any other countries that indulge in such lack of self control for eating. The stats speak for themselves and NA are the most obese.

I do not think prostitution should be criminalized for it only seeks to punich the pros and not the pimp or john who create the need. Yes, some communities are taking back the safety for their chidlren but what came first? The supply or the demand?

I watched this movie cannot remember the title but they said in early settling of the American west they just set up a bordello and the men came . NO pun intended..not meant to be offensive...that women of ill repute settled the West....

I think abused adults DO select other ways do self destruct, some never even aware of what they are doing.Be it drugs, unprotected sex, bad relationship, mutilation, dieting etc it ALWAYS manifests itself in a destructive way until inner change can be had.

I do not believe any one CHOOSES to be a pro and therein lies the diversion of argument. Yes, call girls are made to be glamourous but even they must know at the end of the day they are being sexually objectified.I guess if they make enough money it helds distract one from looking innerward to the truth. Yes, people enjoy sex and paying for it but I doubt it has to do with being ehalthy.Again if we lived in a world where every PRO was of choice then I could answer it other than what I have here. I know it is NOT true so I will never accept the legalization of PRO.
I know there are places in USA( Mustang Ranch) that have done 'well' with legalized PRO but I do not know how may are by choice or as an effect of abuse.

I agree slavery EVERYWHERE SHOULD BE ILLEGAL!Sex is NOT illegal, the buying of sex is.

Iwould say the guys 20 years ago was not the norm.It is only within the last few years that communties are taking the law into their own hands looking after their own communities.You have vigilante video groups sending film to police to make arrests all around. It is only in last while that there has been any real organization to go after pimps and johns.Never too late.

I agree we cannot legislate non mysogyny but as we know despite all the supposed safe laws we still are overwhelmed with these crimes on a daily basis.So what is going on?

At the time they thought Prohibition was a good idea. At some time they thought prostituion was good idea. At some time they thought lobotomies were a good idea. At some time they thought many things were a good idea. And we have learned that many things have created a bigger mess.

exhale :)

[Franklin]

Hi Factsuall,

I don't reckon we're going to convince each other, but that's OK. The fact that prostitution is illegal suggests that mine is the minority opinion.

I don't disagree that most if not all prostitutes were abused in some way prior to going into that line of work. But it is an opinion, not a fact. Laws ought to be based on fact.

Then we have the issue of what constitutes abuse. Virtually all of us have been abused by someone at some time. So for a statement such as, "All prostitutes were abused", requires a fairly specific definition of what abuse is.

Abuse runs the gamet from your parents having raised their voice to you a few times - which most of us wouldn't consider abuse, but some would - to molestation, starvation, beatings to the point of broken bones or stitches...

But even if one could prove that every prostitute was abused by any reasonable person's standard of what abuse is and that the abuse was the cause of people turning to prostitution, I'd still hold that criminalizing prostitution is foolish. The law's job is to prevent the cause of problems (when doing so doesn't infringe on basic human rights), not the effects of problems. That would be like making getting shot illegal rather than making it illegal to shoot someone.

Criminalizing prostitution heaps more shame upon those who chose the profession due to having been shamed. And deciding that it is impossible for anyone to ever be happy in that career is way beyond the bounds of government in a free society. Next step is to decide that nobody could possibly be happy as a homosexual or as a Jew. I can't fathom that anyone could be happy eating mushrooms, but I don't propose that we ban them. (Though there should be warning labels. It's really nasty to accidentally bite down on one of those confounded pieces of hydrogenated phlegm of Satan.)

You wrote:I agree we cannot legislate non mysogyny but as we know despite all the supposed safe laws we still are overwhelmed with these crimes on a daily basis. So what is going on?

I think that what's going on is that people don't respect laws that they see as an imposition of someone else's morality.

Cheers, Franklin

[factsuall]

Hi Factsuall,

I don't reckon we're going to convince each other, but that's OK. The fact that prostitution is illegal suggests that mine is the minority opinion.

I don't disagree that most if not all prostitutes were abused in some way prior to going into that line of work. But it is an opinion, not a fact. Laws ought to be based on fact.

Then we have the issue of what constitutes abuse. Virtually all of us have been abused by someone at some time. So for a statement such as, "All prostitutes were abused", requires a fairly specific definition of what abuse is.

Abuse runs the gamet from your parents having raised their voice to you a few times - which most of us wouldn't consider abuse, but some would - to molestation, starvation, beatings to the point of broken bones or stitches...

But even if one could prove that every prostitute was abused by any reasonable person's standard of what abuse is and that the abuse was the cause of people turning to prostitution, I'd still hold that criminalizing prostitution is foolish. The law's job is to prevent the cause of problems (when doing so doesn't infringe on basic human rights), not the effects of problems. That would be like making getting shot illegal rather than making it illegal to shoot someone.

Criminalizing prostitution heaps more shame upon those who chose the profession due to having been shamed. And deciding that it is impossible for anyone to ever be happy in that career is way beyond the bounds of government in a free society. Next step is to decide that nobody could possibly be happy as a homosexual or as a Jew. I can't fathom that anyone could be happy eating mushrooms, but I don't propose that we ban them. (Though there should be warning labels. It's really nasty to accidentally bite down on one of those confounded pieces of hydrogenated phlegm of Satan.)

You wrote:

I think that what's going on is that people don't respect laws that they see as an imposition of someone else's morality.

Cheers, Franklin
NOPERONI, we will never agree! :evil: YOu can't make me!

The relationship between child abuse and prostitution is NOT an opinion it is base on stats and many years of participatory and qualitative research from various sources. I do not have a recent one but when I do I will post it.I use to work in this area and everyone of the pros were abused that is not opinion that is fact. There are more abused on streets then not.That is fact. Not all abused are on street .That is fact.

I am not sure why it is illegal other than it is said to immoral. I think that moral high road is conventient and double standard at best.It should be illegal because it is inhumane, harmful, injurious..something a bit more substantial than 'moral as that is too ambiguous and subjective which is why I think there is so much grey area on opinion.If we are taught it is wrong due to what I stated here then we will and should see a change in public opinion...

Criminalizing PRO does not bring any more shame than what they feel before they get to the street.I am not suggesting all are abused but I am sugegsting that anyone who actually says they apsire to enjoy it is in serious case of denial.Women must aspire to more and be encourage to do so. Poverty is the a devil of PRO and we must look at that as a contributor or enticer to the steets. Many are falsee led into worls of glamour and glitz.

Because MEN are the benefactors usually of PRO it is rationalized as being a victimless crime so they do not have to take responsibility for the ongoing degradation of women, young men an children.

[Franklin]

Hi Factsuall<

I think this horse is dead now. So what were we saying about Nancy Grace?...

I find her to be entertaining, but I wouldn't want her on the jury if I was on trial.

Cheers, Franklin

[factsuall]

Hi Factsuall<

I think this horse is dead now. So what were we saying about Nancy Grace?...

I find her to be entertaining, but I wouldn't want her on the jury if I was on trial.

Cheers, Franklin
Hey Franklin,
Sadly you AND I will disagree here as well.
Until child abuse and negligence and prostitution are eradicated the hoss has few more laps.
Having said that if you wish to close this topic I can accept that.


If I were a victim I would want her as my DA if I were a perp NO WAY!
~
New business


Nancy Grace show made me cry.
Sharon Rocha was on it tonight and she is looking great considering.

But one of the most humane things I have ever witnessed on either of her shows happened tonight.I hope others seen it.

Daniel Horowitz made his first appearance back with court reporting. That in itself is remarkable considering. In his own pain he told Sharon that he hoped that she would accept his apology for the hurtful things he said during the trial.

Sharon gracefully accepted his apology.

I remember some of the things DH said and they were 'whacked'. Maybe the unfortunate demise of his own wife gave him a humanity and sensitivity only a victim can feel.

I find when I am privy to witnessing such an exchange of humanity: I weep.

Despite the misfortune in both lives they met in the middle.

[Franklin]

Hi Factsuall,

You wrote:If I were a victim I would want her as my DA if I were a perp NO WAY!

I don't disagree with that. Of course there's a third possiblity - I could be on trial and be innocent. But if I were on trial, I wouldn't want her on the jury whether or not I was innocent.

About prostitution: I don't mind continuing the discussion. I just don't have anything else to say. You and I have different opinions - doesn't make either of us wrong. I wouldn't want to live in a world where everyone had the same opinion.

Cheers, Franklin

[factsuall]

Hi Factsuall,

You wrote:

I don't disagree with that. Of course there's a third possiblity - I could be on trial and be innocent. But if I were on trial, I wouldn't want her on the jury whether or not I was innocent.

About prostitution: I don't mind continuing the discussion. I just don't have anything else to say. You and I have different opinions - doesn't make either of us wrong. I wouldn't want to live in a world where everyone had the same opinion.

Cheers, Ted
ABSOLUTELY! But I would hope all opinions at least sought to improve the standards of humanity.

I work from the premise that why would one have an uneducated opinion when an educated opinion is so much more credible and FREE!

I did include your third possibility.Whether I was innocent and of course I am or guilty I still would not want NG on my jury she is TOO biased.

But you are right,there is only two sides of the prostitution issue and I think we have stated them here.

[SugarCookie]

I caught a few minutes of Nancy Grace's show on Headline News tonight.

Someone should tell her that imitating Scooby Doo ('rut-roh') is not exactly conducive to viewers taking her seriously.

But then, neither is the nostril-flaring that she's so infamous for.

:dork:

[HollysMom]

Nancy Grace is annoying, but at the end of the day she tends to make me think. One area in which I find her to be very annoying is her lack of sincerity when trying to drum up sympathy for some defendants. When she makes her voice go all soft and it "cracks" with alligator tears, I just want to laugh and tell her that she's fooling no one. :)

[palefrost]

I used to like Nancy Grace when she first started showing up on panals but now i just think shes a sell out and out for the media spotlight. This recent interview turned my stomach on her and i no longer watch her show.
http://www.crooksandliars.com/posts/2006/07/19/elizabeth-smart-puts-grace-in-her-place/